Jim Steen's Legacy

[wonderboy33]

The jokes about JV Steen or MCB being the greatest swimmer of all-time are a result of jealously. That simple.

I think the reason some people don't like Kenyon is because of the attitude with which they conduct themselves. After each National Title, they all gather in the pool and yell out the number of National Titles they've won, and then count the next year as well. That would be like the Patriots declaring that they will win the next Super Bowl in front of the opponent that they've just soundly beaten for the current title. Well, maybe it's more like a high school nine-man football team declaring the next title when there are 4 higher levels of competition above them. It's classless. The fact that it happens is only proof that it is condoned by the coaching staff.

[griz]

I'm sure recruiting is pretty easy when your pool has this description...

"The new home for Kenyon College's national championship swim teams, the KAC Natatorium opened in 2006. The facility features a pool that holds 985,000 gallons of water, accommodates 20 lanes (25 yards), or nine long-course lanes, ample deck space, plus one- and three-meter diving boards. The size of the pool not only makes for more comfortable competition, but allows the swim teams efficient practice options, while creating more time for recreational swimming.

The pool area also includes a wet classroom, a meet manager's office, a whirlpool, on-deck access to locker rooms, a digital scoreboard, and second-tier stands that seat approximately 350 fans."

[Father]

wonderboy:

That's an interesting point.

What else do they do that's so bad? Is it all about counting the extra number? Is it really that rude? Maybe it is. I'm just wondering.


How about when everyone in the stands decides to cheer/celebrate when a Kenyon relay gets dq'ed? How do you think that's viewed by the Kenyon folks? You think that's classy? Again, I'm just wondering. I hope there's no double standard.

[The Treat]

I think the reason some people don't like Kenyon is because of the attitude with which they conduct themselves. After each National Title, they all gather in the pool and yell out the number of National Titles they've won, and then count the next year as well. That would be like the Patriots declaring that they will win the next Super Bowl in front of the opponent that they've just soundly beaten for the current title. Well, maybe it's more like a high school nine-man football team declaring the next title when there are 4 higher levels of competition above them. It's classless. The fact that it happens is only proof that it is condoned by the coaching staff.

at first i didnt like how they did this, but think of it this way. for many of those kids, they're either a freshman or a sophomore (who may not have made the national team last year) so to them, this is the first time they've ever won a national championship.

you think the seniors are going to say, "you know what guys? we're not going to do that this year. it offends everyone else. i know you've put in countless hours this year and sacrificed spending time w/ your non-swimmer friends and given up your winter AND spring break, but everyone else thinks this is just us showing off."? hell no. that'd be poor leadership on their part. you have to give those kids a once in a lifetime experience. that way, when recruits come to visit in the upcoming months, they can hear it in the way the freshman talk about how their first national experience was.

some people also don't like the way they raise their trophies and smile smugly at the crowd after winning an event. know why? kenyon has one of the biggest alumni presences in d3 swimming. when you've got that many people coming to cheer and are part of a program with that much tradition, it's hard not to smile after winning a race.

i have no problem w/ them doing that. i sat there after each year of nationals and used that as motivation for next year. of course i knew my team wouldnt come close to challenging for a team championship, but that doesnt mean you cant beat them in a relay or an individual event.

on top of all this, talk to some of the kenyon kids. they're normal, nice kids, just like any of us... except if you're from denison, then they're the spawn of satan

[wonderboy33]

Well, I believe humility is important. I think you have to conduct yourself the same in victory and defeat. When people cheer for a Kenyon DQ, that's not right either. However, I'm not sure that it's a specific school that cheers for a Kenyon DQ or if there is a specific cheer that is always made by one school when this happens. My assumption is that there are a number of people from different schools that join in with the cheering.

When Kenyon disrespects their competition after each title, they open themselves up to the ire of the rest of the division, and rightfully so. The coaching staff is responsible for setting the tone of the athletes on the team. If the coaching staff allows this kind of poor sportsmanship, then the athletes will conduct themselves accordingly.

[Mac of the MIAC]

What else do they do that's so bad? Is it all about counting the extra number? Is it really that rude? Maybe it is. I'm just wondering.

Are you serious? I never noticed them do this, and I think it's about as offensive as you get. What a bunch of jerks, coaches and swimmers included. Father, how would you like it if I counted off each point I beat you in the ACT by? Would that make you feel good about yourself?

If I were a swimmer on the Kenyon team, there is no way I would participate in this, and there is no way I'd be friends with anyone else who did. It's called leadership and character, something that the head coach clearly lacks.

[wonderboy33]

at first i didnt like how they did this, but think of it this way. for many of those kids, they're either a freshman or a sophomore (who may not have made the national team last year) so to them, this is the first time they've ever won a national championship.

you think the seniors are going to say, "you know what guys? we're not going to do that this year. it offends everyone else. i know you've put in countless hours this year and sacrificed spending time w/ your non-swimmer friends and given up your winter AND spring break, but everyone else thinks this is just us showing off."? hell no. that'd be poor leadership on their part. you have to give those kids a once in a lifetime experience. that way, when recruits come to visit in the upcoming months, they can hear it in the way the freshman talk about how their first national experience was.

Leadership is not about doing what's been done before because you don't want to deprive a freshman of a certain experience. Leadership sometimes involves change, and that change can be a change for the better. Would displaying better sportsmanship have ruined the experience for the freshman? No. In fact, it would be sending a message that you have to conduct yourself on a higher plane. That's more important than any of the titles. Again, if the coaching staff doesn't care, the kids won't care.

[DonCheadle]

You're just gonna have to wonder. No one will ever know the secrets...

Maybe he is just really good at finding workouts on google....

what a joke!

There are no training secrets and it is a myth that Kenyon swimmers improve more than other programs. Work hard, work smart, lift weights and you will dro time. Were you an age group all-star whose best times are behind you? Well then you might not improve.

Every team has examples of huge drops, and every team has examples of flops.

Interesting to note the progression of this thread: A ridiculous article was chastised. Father took it personally and started defending Steen the man. Steen backers flew to the rescue of Steen even though the attack was on the article not the man. Now we are arguing about the program. How did that happen?

Just so my stance can be clear: I have no opinion on Steen other than he runs an awesome program but this article was stupid.

[maverick]

wonderboy-are you against fun or having some pride? it's not like the kenyon team locks all of the doors and forces everyone to watch them celebrate.

I personally watched when i attended ncaa's and thought it was cool to at least witness the cheering. One thing i thought was funny was that at the rec plex (st. louis area) kenyon sat right next to the ready room and when the swimmers would be walking out for their events, nobody would cheer from the kenyon bench. For some of the relays, when i was the only guy from kzoo not swimming, i sure as heck humiliated myself screaming at my teammates when they walked out (while my coach stood next to me silently).....but them not cheering is their choice, it doesn't make them bad teammates or make steen a bad coach, it's just their way of doing things.

[wonderboy33]

Maverick, is it at all possible to show pride without disrespecting your competition? I don't think displaying a little class in victory is ruining the fun for the athletes, is it?

[Father]

Mac,

I would laugh at you just like I'm laughing right now.


Treat,

I can't believe you actually complained about them raising their trophies and smiling.


I am not going to comment on this issue right anymore. Again, I would never win this argument because of so many anti-Kenyon people here. Also, the people who have posted here clearly don't know anything about those coaches, swimmers, and that program. Most of you just think you know everything, but you have no idea.


I suggest you all try to beat those guys next time.

I'm done posting on this. Amen!

[Colbybr]

Definitely did not want to this to get into a bashing of Steen the man. Steen is a great coach, and as the argument bears out, it is very hard to quantify how great a coach is. A coach myself, I think that in any program media probably give coaches a little too much credit. We don't swim any races, or feel too much (physical) pain during them. And institutions can have a lot of influence over the success of a program. There are definitely some schools in division 3 that place an institutional priority on having a good swim team through admissions, and I think this varies a good deal from school to school.

But I digress. I feel pretty embarrassed to have started this thread that ended up with Coach Steen being belittled. The article has poor wording, but I'm pretty sure he didn't write it.

[maverick]

then again wonderboy, is their cheering ruining the fun for the other athletes?

[The Treat]

Well, I believe humility is important. I think you have to conduct yourself the same in victory and defeat. When people cheer for a Kenyon DQ, that's not right either. However, I'm not sure that it's a specific school that cheers for a Kenyon DQ or if there is a specific cheer that is always made by one school when this happens. My assumption is that there are a number of people from different schools that join in with the cheering.

When Kenyon disrespects their competition after each title, they open themselves up to the ire of the rest of the division, and rightfully so. The coaching staff is responsible for setting the tone of the athletes on the team. If the coaching staff allows this kind of poor sportsmanship, then the athletes will conduct themselves accordingly.

so when the bulls made shirts, hats, buttons, etc... that said, 3-peat and repeat the 3-peat back in the 90's, that was disrespectful?

would you be mad if after kenyon won it's second title they held up two fingers, which stood for two in a row? what about after three? any more fingers and it starts to get ridiculous so maybe they decided to count. at what point does it start to become disrespectful? as a swimmer on kenyon, at what point are you going to stop it?

i think people look too much into being disrespectful when it comes to celebrating. in my opinion, as long as it's not blatantly shoving it in the face of one team or one swimmer, they've earned the right to do whatever they want when they celebrate. would it make any difference to you if they did it back at their pool? if so, then just go into the locker room and leave. for all you know, they didn't do it. i guarantee it does make a difference for them if they did it right there at nationals or if they did it back at home. back at home, a lot of the emotional high has worn off. it's just them celebrating as a team, that's all. don't make it bigger than it is.

[maverick]

I feel pretty embarrassed to have started this thread that ended up with Coach Steen being belittled. The article has poor wording, but I'm pretty sure he didn't write it.

along these lines......if things do get worse, or if mac of the miac gets nasty, i might have to edit some of his posts